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Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture
Grade belts are a scam

In my view they are a scam. I can get a black belt from one club, and then go to another and they can say, well your a yellow belt. I have been to clubs where i have stated clearly I do not wish to grade, or do competitions, there is a lot of resentment at this because they want to force me to pay money. Not only can i  not afford it, I am too old (50) on medication which slows me down, just plain not interested in it. To me when people get belts their arrogance score goes up a 1000% and think they can use the stuff they know on the street. They can if they are lucky, but if they are over confident this is dangerous. 

I went to judo club, where the instructor was not teaching people stuff, he just let them fight it out, people did not learn break falls, so new comers were getting hurt. I saw an orange belt and  his shoulder was dislocated, i said he must know his break fall, I was told no he does not because he has been marked up so he can do competitions, apparently this is quite common. I have met black belts who do not know how to break fall in judo.  i have had the same problem in karate. I like just do doing the stuff, doing the art, it is not the belt that makes me but my effort and willing to be open minded. Grades are scams. 

i do judo, i can not afford the full licence, so i can not grade, plus i am an old man for sport so instructors are not interested in me grading without the money, Karate club is different at the instructor is socially aware. The point is no matter what i  grade at, it is only at the club and its standards that count know where else. 

There is a lack of respect for people who are not graded or are of low grades in lots of clubs i been too. This is not good for the club or the martial arts world 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

There’s no doubt that belts can be a money-making scheme for some, and a method of political control for others. It does not follow that all grades are unethical though.

I’m proud of the grades I have. I worked hard for them and I was awarded them by people I admire and respect. I also know that the ones I have awarded to others were also thoroughly deserved.

The grading system, when done right, can be useful, fair and entirely ethical.

We can have good karate and bad karate; but we should not judge all karate by the bad. Same with grades.

It sounds like you’ve had some bad experiences, but that does not mean all grades issued are a scam. Most are fairly earned and fairly issued.

A couple of old podcasts relevant to the topic:

The Black Belt and the Grading System:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/black-belt-and-grading-system

Money in the Martial Arts:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/money-and-martial-arts-podcast

All the best,

Iain

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Mulberry4000

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with teachers, in my club no one is forced to grade, it is completely optional. 

My students only grade when I'm 100% happy that they are ready. If instructors push you to grade I would change the club and look for instructor which would suit you. Like in every walk of life you have good people and bad people.

Kind regards

Les

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I do not think that belt grades are ALWAYS a scam, but they certainly can be. They serve two purposes, as I see it--visual goal markers for students who need them, and visual skill level or curriculum markers for instructors and other members of the dojo. Now, if you're forcing people to test for rank, and charging them for it, regardless of whether they care about or want it, then yes, that is trying to scam people out of money. Personally, I see value in the testing, itself, and I recommend that people go through it, if only for that experience. It also confuses new students and visiting instructors when someone is wearing a white belt that, based on skills, knowledge, and experience, shouldn't. Still, it should be up to you to test--that's how we do it in our dojo. We have a guy who has been training with us for about 8 years, now, and is still a white belt. He would probably test, at some point, but he has dealt with injuries and cancer over the years, so he just trains when he can for the enjoyment of it, and doesn't worry about the rank. That's perfectly fine, and he can stay a white belt forever if he likes. We just have to explain to people who work with him, but don't know him, that he isn't really at a white belt level.

Quick2Kick
Quick2Kick's picture

Of the 4 styles I have been belted in bjj has my favorite belt promotion criteria. When you can consistently submit the rank you are at and others of your same rank can't submit you or have a very hard time doing it, you move up. Time is not a factor in the ranking process, age or injury are not taken into account. If you don't have the skill you don't move up. 

J Coder
J Coder's picture

Belts and ranks are all reletave. I've seen good black belts and poor ones in all of the Dan ratings to boot. I respect a man for his karate and what he brings to the table and is willing to share with others. That is more important than the belt. Although I have a black belt in 3 discipines I do not wear a belt. Just gi pants and a black tee shirt. I see myself going backwards into the original Okinawan mindset of karate before it was introduced to Japan. At that time they didn't have a ranking system or belts. Just training and nothing else. I prefer it that way.

Jeff Coder

Neil Babbage
Neil Babbage's picture

I wonder if there's a difference in behaviour though between sports based clubs and practical / non-sports clubs? If competition is part of the ethos of the club then it's really important to have people in the right grade so that matches are fair. It would be wholly wrong for someone with 10 years experience to turn up to a competition wearing a white belt and compete against newcomers. In a non-sports club it makes no difference as you aren't training to "win" in the same way and it becomes much more a way of marking progress (which people can find motivational) and making instructors' lives easier.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Quick2Kick wrote:
In the 4 ranks I have been belted in bjj has my favorite belt promotion criteria. When you can consistently submit the rank you are at and others of your same rank can't submit you or have a very hard time doing it, you move up. Time is not a factor in the ranking process, age or injury are not taken into account. If you don't have the skill you don't move up.

I can see the value and honesty in that, but BJJ has its problems with grades too these days. I mentioned it in a thread a few months ago (https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/bjj-catching-tmas-cold). In the video in that thread they talk about people getting "black belts" without ever actually rolling and many other problems we know only too well in the traditional martial asts world. Since that post, I was emailed loads of other examples such as this one:

http://www.bjjee.com/featured/35-yr-old-promoted-to-red-belt-in-bjj-angers-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-community/

If you read the article, you can see the good and the great of BJJ commenting on their own problematic grades problem.

At the other end of the spectrum we have this gentleman who demoted himself from black belt:

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/jiu-jitsu-black-belt-enson-inoue-explains-demoted-purple-belt/

“I understand that I earned my black belt 18 years ago but let’s be real it’s a different art today. If I were going to close the door of my BJJ career then I would have closed the door as a black belt. But I have chosen to set foot in the BJJ world today, which is almost a whole new art, and I honestly will rank myself as I stand in this era.

“I see it like… If I was considered a specialist on cell phones 18 years ago the dropped off the grid of cell phone technology then came back today, can i still call himself a cell phone specialist? No but I can call myself a cell phone specialist of back in the day. Could I know everything about the old flip phones and 18 years later pick up an iPhone and tell you how to use it? I don’t think so. Would you feel right mingling with the iPhone specialist and be able to say you’re an iPhone specialist too. I couldn’t.”

Just like in karate, there are good and bad grades.

Quick2Kick wrote:
Time is not a factor in the ranking process, age or injury are not taken into account. If you don't have the skill you don't move up.

Age would still seem to be respected though. As it should be. No one in BJJ would expect a red belt in their 80s or 90s to be able to constantly tap out a skilled black belt in their mid 20s.

I do like the BJJ model – focused on function – but they are not immune to the problems we have had in karate. There’s still dishonesty, questionable awards, people getting “black belts” without having to apply things live, etc. I hope they have better luck in dealing with it than us, but we may see they too are forced to accept that not all grades are equal.

J Coder wrote:
Belts and ranks are all relative.

Absolutely. They are internal markers only and they can’t be compared across groups. The only way they could be is if there was one worldwide organisation that set the standard for all. That sounds horrific to me! It would end innovation and may lead to the tyranny of the mediocre.

The fact that grades are all over the place is a price worth paying. So long as the individual values their grades, and only awards them to people who they feel legitimately deserve them, then that’s as good as it can get.

J Coder wrote:
I've seen good black belts and poor ones in all of the Dan ratings to boot. I respect a man for his karate and what he brings to the table and is willing to share with others. That is more important than the belt.

Totally agree.

Neil Babbage wrote:
If competition is part of the ethos of the club then it's really important to have people in the right grade so that matches are fair.

That’s a good observation. The judo club I trained at were very competition focused and grades were largely ignored. Everyone was judged on their skill in randori and not the rank they held. The only time grades became important was when it was felt to be time to get people competing in different categories. So my experience would fit with Neil’s observation.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

In the immortal words of the master :-)

manusg34
manusg34's picture

Belts and testing is crazy around here. It has got almost as bad as that "commercial" you did in your podcast for the spectrum 2000 belt system hahahaha. I do like the belts especially the kids to help keep them motivated. But I only have 6 belts and a few stripes at brown.  I do not charge for belts and testing that way if they fail I dont feel bad for for taking someones money. I want them to know it is my reward to them working hard and not that I am broke and need money so everyone gets their quarterly promotion.

Matt

Marc
Marc's picture

Quick2Kick wrote:

In the 4 ranks I have been belted in bjj has my favorite belt promotion criteria. When you can consistently submit the rank you are at and others of your same rank can't submit you or have a very hard time doing it, you move up. Time is not a factor in the ranking process, age or injury are not taken into account. If you don't have the skill you don't move up.

Theoretically that's a great system: Outranking by skill.

Two questions I have, however (oh, I sound like Yoda):

1) What if your skill deteriorates because of ageing or injury or just not training for a few years? Do you get demoted or do you keep your rank?

2) According to Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu#Grading> there are about 13 ranks to be aquired in a BJJ career. What if your BJJ club only has 13 members? If you can submit all of them all the time, will you be a redbelt then? What if you then join another club with 130 members? Will you retain your redbelt, although some bluebelt will easily submit you? Or will the bluebelt be promoted?

The idea makes sense. But only within a club/group, not universally. It's the same for all ranking systems in any club/group, I suppose. They're just not comparable universally.

All the best,

Marc

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

hi i know not all grades are a scam, and there is a need for some form of grading, but what about people just doing it for the art not the black belt etc. The karate instructor is very socially aware, helps students out if they cannot afford the class, he loves karate and wants people to do it for the art. People say  it just bad experiences but i  it find it the norm, whereas my instructor in karate is the exception rather than the rule. The Judo club where the injuries take place is instructed by a well-known judoka.

Thanks for replying 

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

I have demoted myself from 2nd kyu in Judo, to ungraded in Judo. I got the for rank when I was 21 years old. now I am 50, when I told people and showed people the grade book they did not believe me. Thought I was faking it, I said it does not matter I want to start from scratch ungraded and take my time. I got angry when I was being pressured to do competitions, I said no, then they said no grades then I said fine lol. That made them even more fanatical. To some it is like a religion. I do not mind getting thrown, some see it as a shame, a defeat, I  see it as part of doing judo,  If I went to another karate club and say i  am a black belt (i am not)  will wear a white belt and start from scratch in that club. 

I  like going back and doing the same old stuff, learning all over again. Just like music scales, you have to keep doing them over and over again, each club is different. Ian if  i attend your seminar one day I would wear  a white belt.  

Quick2Kick
Quick2Kick's picture

Marc, 

1. I don't know of anyone being demoted b/c of skill deteriorated. I do know of a well known black belt demoting himself. Mr. Abernethy linked the article in his post. 

2. My bjj rank is not an internal marker. My instructors travel to other schools often and compete at tournaments. My rank is based on their experience with others. If I joined another gym whose ranking was different I would leave my rank placement up to that gyms instructor. 

I do not speak for bjj as a whole. I was commenting on how my instructors promote at my school. A new belt is like putting a bullseye on your back. You constantly have to defend your rank on the mat b/c lower ranks want to prove they deserve the next belt by beating you.

Also I have been a TMA for 20 years and a bjj practioner for 4 so please don't consider me a bjj expert

Marc
Marc's picture

Quick2Kick, thanks for your answer.

Marc